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Post Info TOPIC: Sexist, racist, disgusting twunt


High Mookish Shaman

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Sexist, racist, disgusting twunt


So, ages ago, I posted on the wall of a page on facebook called Rules For Women During The Worldcup. Now these rules, as you can probably imagine, are just the same old 'MakE MAn SammIch' type deal, but I thought I'd say something because I thought it was horrible, even though I know these people are pretty effing stupid and struggle with the concepts of 'equality' and 'not being a total twatbasket'.

This is what I said (not the most eloquent thing I've ever written) and the replies I got to it.

The replies to it are pretty disgusting, but it was this last one that really made me angry:

Jumán Ardabili

I've said it before & I'll say it again, the two worst places on this earth to be looking women are the 50 states of the USA, and the UK we call them Americunt Skkkankkks, and British Cunt Skkkkankkks. Out & Out Lazy B*tches who only have o...nly thing in mind: Getting their hands on your Money, Property & Resources via the Court Systems by any means necessary, Especially since both countires have court systems that treat them like imbecile children who are incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions. These measures include making false rape & abuse allegations against you, what do they have to do lose? nothing, they are protected. Any proof needed? Absolutely none because by law their word must be taken as evidence! Of course there is always the marraige route & common law route as well. Way too many are hell bant in moving in with you or marrying you & popping out crumb-crunchers with you just to make sure they god their hands on anywhere from half to 75% of what you got. And Paternity Fraud? --OH you bet! And boy do they love to jump back & forth between being females of 100 years ago & females of today with None of the responsibilities that come with both roles. Sorry Americunt Skkkankkk, Sorry British Cunts--but you have been rejected & replaced!

Urgh.



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Honoured Mook

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tammycuteness wrote:

So, ages ago, I posted on the wall of a page on facebook called Rules For Women During The Worldcup. Now these rules, as you can probably imagine, are just the same old 'MakE MAn SammIch' type deal, but I thought I'd say something because I thought it was horrible, even though I know these people are pretty effing stupid and struggle with the concepts of 'equality' and 'not being a total twatbasket'.

The replies to it are pretty disgusting, but it was this last one that really made me angry: .... 

Urgh.


 Oh dear .. on many counts ...

I realise that "humour" is rather like beauty .. it is in the eye if the beholder. WE may not think that "Rules for women" is funny but the INTENT was humour, not insult.

And - at the risk of sounding patronising (sorry) you dont change people's perspective by calling them "cunts".

When I am angry I write  a message and never hit the send button. Then I think what I want to achieve and write what will hopefully achieve what I want.  Of course, if your whole intention was to insult by calling them "cunts" , so be it. That's your perogative.

There is no excuse for the vile message sent to you BUT it should not be a surprise.

Have a look at Betari's Box (or Google) and you will see why your "cunts" message received such a response.

It is GREAT that you challenge sexist crap .. but perhaps you can choose your battles or of course, just sound off .. because you can.

 



-- Edited by Josi on Friday 1st of April 2011 10:06:35 AM

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High Mookish Shaman

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I wrote that message a long time ago, and I agree, it's not really the best thing I could have written. In fact I think I wrote it on the day I found out I was pregnant... not in the best of mind frames :/ not that that's an excuse.

I wasn't angry at the things said back aimed at ME, I was expecting them. But the stuff that guy said about British and American women falsely accusing men of rape made me angry.

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High Mookish Shaman

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It was not the most well-advised way to respond to sexists but, you know, being seriously angry doesn't put anyone in a great frame of mind for fighting their corner. If it's any consolation, I once reacted to being groped in a club by smacking the guy upside the head then snatching his glasses of his face and calling him something like a 'piece of shit 70s paedophile' (he was wearing really weird clothes). Aside from the fact that a tiny woman should not pick fights with men twice her size, it kind of invalidated my argument when I tried to get a bouncer to throw the fucker out.

Ahem.

It was brave of you to go up against what would definitely be unthinking, idiotic abuse. But that last response is just mental. It hurts my brain to think that people actually reason sexual politics like that. They are the words of a man whose sister, wife, girlfriend or mother has never suffered sexual abuse and so assumes it can't possibly be real. It makes me want to be as cunty a British Cunt as I possibly can.

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Honoured Mook

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The page was clearly set up as a joke & I don't think people who make sexist jokes can really be labelled sexist if that's just their type of humour. I enjoy a sexist joke or two as long as it's not serious, it's part of the banter in my mixed gender group of friends.

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Regular Crew

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Yeah, I can't even begin to comprehend his response... I just wonder why he holds such viewpoints. It makes me very sad for him that those are his beliefs on the matter.

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High Mookish Shaman

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Punk Rock Princess wrote:

The page was clearly set up as a joke & I don't think people who make sexist jokes can really be labelled sexist if that's just their type of humour. I enjoy a sexist joke or two as long as it's not serious, it's part of the banter in my mixed gender group of friends.


 How do you feel about racist jokes, directed against black or Asian people, as cracked by a white person?

Clockbox does an edit: and I think tammycuteness's main problem is with the last response, although I really don't find this sort of humour funny or helpful. It's like people who 'jokingly' refer to rape as 'surprise sex'. LOL.



-- Edited by clockbox on Friday 1st of April 2011 05:32:22 PM

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Honoured Mook

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I don't really like racist jokes, but this isn't about race. And people like different forms of comedy. If people didn't then Frankie Boyle wouldn't have a job. I just think that people who like a certain type of humour shouldn't be labelled.

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I saw him too. He had a guitar. He winked at me before he jumped out a fourth floor window like he had wings. 

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Suddenly I heard a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. 
What are you talking about? 
You heard me rapping, right? 



High Mookish Shaman

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People who perpetuate sexist stereotypes by making them amusing and belittling the issues shouldn't be called sexist? Really?

It isn't about race but it is the same issue. People find happy slapping and abusing pensioners hilarious but I don't see anyone allowing that kind of humour to run riot. I don't see why we have to allow something that is offensive to our points of view go. Liv had every right to take issue with these people.



-- Edited by clockbox on Friday 1st of April 2011 05:36:08 PM

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Honoured Mook

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The thing about false rape also made me angry- if it was a joke page, fair enough. But was his response really justifiable?

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High Mookish Shaman

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I would suggest that his response is a sign that creating a situation in which the defranchisement and deliberation of women is a bit of banter also allows people who hold actual objectionable views to feel like they have a safe haven. People are making jokes about women getting back into the kitchen? Thank goodness, that means if I accuse all women of being gold-diggers who fake rape allegations on this thread, no one will yell at me.

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High Mookish Shaman

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clockbox wrote:
It's like people who 'jokingly' refer to rape as 'surprise sex'. LOL.

 

Oh, this makes me want to rip someone's face off.

Mr. Ardabili clearly doesn't have a girlfriend. I cannot possibly even begin to comprehend how people can think like this. What hideous, twisted upbringing must these people have faced to HONESTLY make them believe that women are inferior to men and deserve to remain so? Why is it always the people with the most disgusting viewpoints that feel the need to shove it down other people's throats?



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High Mookish Shaman

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^God, I know, and the internet means we end up exposed to them.

I have a NEW THOUGHT to add to this thread. I have a pretty international group of friends and we find it amusing to refer to one another in cultural or racist stereotypes, but I know these people all respect me as something more than my race or nationality. One of my best friends affectionately calls me 'the yellow menace, uppity rice-peasant' when I get into arguments, and I think this is cute. If some bunch of strangers came up to me and were like, "lol slitty eyes, get back into the rice paddies' then tried to pass it off as a bit of friendly banter, I would not "lol". I would probably flip out.

My boyfriend and I, and even to a certain extent my ex-lovers, riff on the male/female dynamic. My friend Templeton and I take it in turns to be the 'controlling man' and 'controlled woman' in jest (we're both female). This is because all these people know me and respect me for things outside of my gender, so the reduction of myself to my vagina and its duties is just a stupid joke. When a bunch of strangers who I don't know hacks at my entire gender for the shits and giggles, they are not attempting a bit of banter. They are being insulting, without basis or intellect, for 'humour.' And it's not funny.

 

Clockbox does an edit: I hate the word banter because it is generally used as an excuse for causing offense, but I will just say this: 'banter' suggests dialogue. It suggests someone being able to reply to your 'banter' in a like way, in an enjoyable, stupid way. 'Banter' happens between friends. It is not possible to have 'banter' with a bunch of facebook strangers who are insulting you without knowing you, or wanting to know you, because they're making fun of something that is intrinsically about you (race/sex/disability or whatever) without wanting to understand you.



-- Edited by clockbox on Friday 1st of April 2011 06:18:49 PM

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High Mookish Shaman

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Personally, I don't think it matters whether it's meant in humour or not. You can tell by alot of the comments that the people who 'like' the page actually agree with the underlying message, rathering than just LOLing along but knowing that sexism is in fact, wrong. It's not about what one person finds funny another person doesn't. It's offensive. Like clockbox said, it's just like racist jokes or jokes about the disabled. 'Just a joke' is the age-old bigots excuse.

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Mookish Deity Most High

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I hate being told to chill out because it's "just banter". I've blocked people from my fb for some of the comments they've made about domestic abuse and when I've stepped in they've told me they're just "having a laugh" and that I need to chill out. Well, I'm sorry (actually I'm not sorry). Having been in an abusive relationship I don't find it funny when people think it's ok to say that someone deserved to be hit harder just because that person is famous and they don't like her. That doesn't make me uptight, it means that I don't want to associate with someone who can find it funny when a man physically abuses his partner. I don't care if they're famous, they're people and noone deserves to get beaten by their partner.

There was an article linked somewhere on here about "who is listening when you laugh about rape" or some title like that. About how people trivialise things without thinking that maybe someone they know hears them and has gone through it or feels alone because they'll think their friend won't take them seriously.

I don't find Franky Boyle particularly funny anymore. I think he crossed that line a long time ago and he's now just "shocking" for the sake of it. Yes, some people laugh at him but that doesn't mean what he says should be isn't offensive.

Making fun of yourself or your friends is one thing because you as a group are aware of the limits or when someone is becoming uncomfortable with the jokes. There is no such limit on a fb event. clockbox said it perfectly.

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Mookface (mod)

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tammycuteness wrote:

 'Just a joke' is the age-old bigots excuse.


 My thoughts exactly.



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Runic Mook of the North (mod)

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I often think sexist jokes funny, but a lot less these days when all kind of rabble has crawled out from the rock they lived under and is displaying their disgusting world-view on the world wide web for all to see. I had no idea just how many stupid and awful people there actually is out there, having little contact with limp-dicked macho creeps in real life.

I still think sexist jokes are funny, as long as it is in a context where it is crystal clear that it does not represent the actual views of anyone. The problem with things like these facebook groups is that it attracts the stupid people I previously mentioned, and works as legitimization of their disgusting views.

There must be a space for offensive jokes. For example do I in my current work need to joke about the sometimes sub-par way old and sick people are treated. One must have a way to let out steam. But extreme caution need to be used, especially when said jokes is taking place in the public space.



As for mr. Ardabili, my hypothesis is that he, and perhaps a few of his buddies, might have encountered one or more women with more skill at manipulating than morals. And being a man of limited intellect he have drawn the conclusion that they are representative of all females of our species from said regions. That explanation is surely more comforting to mr. Ardabili's ego than the fact that getting nasty fish is often due to your fishing rod.

The way I see it, the weak spot of the mighty knights of the keyboard is that they are almost without exception rather unintelligent. Thus they can often be thrown off their horses by applying some arrogant wit.

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Honoured Mook

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@Clockbox I wasn't referring to their replies, I was referring to the page itself. You admit yourself to enjoying the sexist/racist joke or two yourself amongst friends, does that make you a sexist? No. Why should it make others who make the same jokes a sexist/racist just because they're not in your group of friends? My group of friends all like to make sexist jokes. The boys make the sandwich jokes to the girls & the girls make the immature/go back to your porn videos jokes to the boys. But we all respect each other & don't actually hold those beliefs. Does that make us sexist? No. Why should it make others sexist for making a joke if they don't actually hold those beliefs? Does that mean that those who enjoy sarcastic humour are all depressing sarcastic twats? No. It doesn't (and before you tell me there's a big difference in the types of humour, it's the same principle- saying that because people make a joke, they must be like that in reality).

And as for happy slapping & abusing pensioners, that's not humour, that's assault. I didn't say that it's ok to go up & hit people for the sake of a giggle & I don't appreciate you accusing me of thinking it's ok when I never said that.

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I saw him too. He had a guitar. He winked at me before he jumped out a fourth floor window like he had wings. 

He winked at you?  [tsk] Musicians. 

 

Suddenly I heard a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. 
What are you talking about? 
You heard me rapping, right? 



Mookish Deity Most High

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The problem with making a joke that is inherently sexist/racist etc in the public domain, whether or not the person who starts it intends it to be taken seriously or not, is that it attracts the people who ARE sexist/racist/whateverist. If that person makes the same joke with their friends, among people who are physically present and can determine that it's just a joke that's fine. When the joke is made to people who are not physically present or friends of the person it is assumed by the sensible people to be a joke but taken to be serious by those who truly hold those beliefs. It's a bit like reading the Daily Mail. Those of us with our sensible heads on can see it's a badly written piece of propogandic nonsense. Those who hold those beliefs believe it to be upholding "good old-fashioned ideals". That's not a straight quote from anywhere, just to be said in a pompous accent.

 

Edit: basically, what I'm trying to say is, make jokes with your friends that are a bit close to the bone or whatever as long as everyone in the group is ok with it.  Don't make the same jokes online and expect everyone to respond with "it's ok, I know you're joking" because they don't.



-- Edited by Spikeyfaerie on Saturday 2nd of April 2011 11:54:17 AM

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Honoured Mook

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I understand what you mean, I just don't like people labelling others for any reason whatsoever when they don't personally know them or know if they're serious or not. It is rare from mooks which is why it really upsets me when it happens.

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I saw him too. He had a guitar. He winked at me before he jumped out a fourth floor window like he had wings. 

He winked at you?  [tsk] Musicians. 

 

Suddenly I heard a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. 
What are you talking about? 
You heard me rapping, right? 



Mookish Deity Most High

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Punk Rock Princess wrote:

I don't really like racist jokes, but this isn't about race. And people like different forms of comedy. If people didn't then Frankie Boyle wouldn't have a job. I just think that people who like a certain type of humour shouldn't be labelled.


I really have to disagree here.

You wouldn't go "lol nigger get back to yo slavin'" to a black person and expect them to sit there and laugh along, and if they object to it you wouldn't tell them to chill out because it's just a joke.

It's the same for sexist jokes. Sexism is a system of oppression just like racism and ablism. Why is it okay to tell women they should get back to the kitchen and expect them to not speak up if they don't like the joke? It's been a lot of effort and fighting for our gender to be able to do anything but work in the kitchen all day, so it's not nice if someone's basically making a joke about how they think they can dominate you.

As far as rape jokes go I think they are a disgusting manifestation of rape culture. We live in a society where someone who experiences a violent or life shattering attack is expected to laugh about it.

I think humour is more influencial than you think. Sexist/racist/ableist humour normalises those opinions in everyday life and a study has shown that men who enjoy sexist jokes are more likely to tolerate abuse towards women or do it themselves.

It is possible to make humour without oppressing whole groups of people who are being shat on by society already. I think people who tell sexist jokes should be called out wherever possible. It's not okay to make light of the subjugation of women because we are far from equal yet and it just creates an envirnoment for people who will easily take those opinions on board.

You say you don't think people who like a certain type of humour should be labelled. People who tell sexist jokes may not internalise what they say or really believe in what they are saying but they are still saying something offensive and their actions matter. They may not be actual sexists but they are perpetuating sexist ideas. I'm not a racist at all but I still can't and never will tell a racist joke because my actions will then be racis and I might as well be a racist then.

For example, someone could joke about rape, not really believe that rape is the woman's fault, but there might be someone in the group of people who was a victim of it and they are basically having the most traumatic experience of their lives laughed at. That is why these kinds of jokes aren't okay.

And frankly I think people like Frankie Boyle shouldn't have a job in the first place.



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Honoured Mook

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^ I highly resent that study. My friends all make sexist jokes towards each other, but we don't accept abuse towards anyone & we don't abuse people ourselves. Studies grossly generalise people which disgusts me.

And I don't like the word "nigger" not even in jokes and I don't appreciate you accusing me of saying that I think the word is acceptable. Because it's not. Nor do I like the word "cunt" being used, even in arguments but many people on this forum use it & I don't judge them for it.

And please, read my other post because I can't be bothered re-typing it for this one.

And I don't like Frankie Boyle either, but if people find him funny, they should go to see him. Comedy is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder, to quote from Josi.

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I saw him too. He had a guitar. He winked at me before he jumped out a fourth floor window like he had wings. 

He winked at you?  [tsk] Musicians. 

 

Suddenly I heard a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. 
What are you talking about? 
You heard me rapping, right? 



Mookish Deity Most High

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She didn't say that you, personally, would use the n-word. She was liking using a "funny" sexist remark to using a "funny" racist remark.

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Mookish Deity Most High

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Punk Rock Princess wrote:

^ I highly resent that study. My friends all make sexist jokes towards each other, but we don't accept abuse towards anyone & we don't abuse people ourselves. Studies grossly generalise people which disgusts me.

And I don't like the word "nigger" not even in jokes and I don't appreciate you accusing me of saying that I think the word is acceptable. Because it's not. Nor do I like the word "cunt" being used, even in arguments but many people on this forum use it & I don't judge them for it.

And please, read my other post because I can't be bothered re-typing it for this one.

And I don't like Frankie Boyle either, but if people find him funny, they should go to see him. Comedy is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder, to quote from Josi.


 She wasn't implying you find the term 'nigger' acceptable; she was drawing a comparison between the casual use of the term which some people think is okay if you're 'just kidding' and the way people make sexist remarks in the belief it's acceptable if you don't mean any harm. If you think about it, it's very much the same thing. After all, you wouldn't make ageist or ableist jokes, particularly in the presence of older people of those with disabilities, and expect them to laugh along with you, would you? So why should women have to put up with derogetory crap simply because people are only 'having a laugh'?

 



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Mookish Deity Most High

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ASDFSJKL;DFJIOJ;
NO, you completely miss-read me there as the girls above explained. How did that even come across like that? Anyway sorry if that offended you, but I really wasn't accusing you of using the word, just making an example that sexist and racist jokes should be treated similarly or hold similar ground.

And that study shows a link between sexist jokes and abuse but it obviously does not mean that every time a male friend of mine says "make me a sammich" I'm flinching in fear of getting pummelled. Of course results like that are a generalisation but it's not saying men who like sexist jokes are going to beat thier wives, it's saying that there is a trend that the majority of men in this study who like sexist jokes are more likely to look over abuse towards women, make excuses for it or even do it themselves one day. There is a cross section of men and in this cross section is a large vein of men who are willing to look over abuse because they are used to sexist attitudes they live around - that is worrying and a possible reflection of our society and as it is highlighted by this study it is something that should be addressed to make sure that this type of opinion isn't held by all men. because it is harmful to women.

The more acceptable jokes about beating women are the more acceptable general sexist ideas are. Amongst friends sexist jokes can be okay, although I persoanlly am still not comfortable, because you know it's not going to offend anyone in the group and you are kind of taking the piss out of people who actually think that way. Think outside of your circle to the creepy men who harrass women in pubs with innapropriate jokes or a group of men making rape jokes, a minority might actually believe the underlying message in the jokes and the others won't stand up to it even if they don't believe it because it's "just a laugh".

You're right, comedy is in the eye of the beholder, i know people like different types of comedy, but if someone says something which is deeply offensive to you (not personally you I mean you as in a general you whoever is reading this, clear?), or your black freind or your disabled brother or your trans cousin and everyone laughed at it you wouldn't just ignore it. Wouldn't you try and educate them about what they are saying? When people are sitting on their priveleged arses (priveledged as in white, cis gendered, straight, not disabled - priveleged as in society gives the most time of day to them) making jokes about groups of people who are oppressed and ignored and have been for years and years it's not right.

At the end of the day no one should label someone who cracks a sexist joke as a full blown sexist, but they should be called out and told the actions they are doing are sexist and they are disparaging a whole gender based on narrow minded stereotypes and could upset someone. And while you worry that the people who tell or laugh at these jokes are being wrnogly labelled what about women getting labelled as sluts, as asking for it, as inferior and more mildly as bad drivers and indecisive and all that shit? Have you never been the butt of a genuinely sexist joke and felt extremely put out and a bit annoyed?

When you said "Does that mean that those who enjoy sarcastic humour are all depressing sarcastic twats?" you may have missed the point a bit because sarcasm doesn't directly target an oppressed group of people so it's not offensive and not completely backwards.

I've tried my best to clarify myself and address all your points and I hope you do the same if you decide to reply. :)



-- Edited by electrosexual on Sunday 3rd of April 2011 01:17:09 PM

Edit: WOW, I can type a lot :S



-- Edited by electrosexual on Sunday 3rd of April 2011 01:17:57 PM

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Mookish Deity Most High

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Electro I think your reply was stunning! If written words can be described as such.

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Mookish Deity Most High

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Thank you, I sometimes worry I go over the top but since my first post was misunderstood I thought I should take the time to write something really in depth and make it as clear an arguement as I could. So apologies for the wall of text but I wanted to be crystal clear with what I was saying.

Edit: The typos. D: so.  many.  typos. D:




-- Edited by electrosexual on Sunday 3rd of April 2011 06:52:12 PM

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Seasoned Mookster

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Everything that man say's is just wrong and I don't see any humour in that at all.

Electro all that you said I completely agree with, you always adress points like these brilliantly.

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Honoured Mook

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I think most of what I would want to say has been covered by others, and far more eloquently than I could probably manage as well.

I don't agree with sexism, racism, or any type of prejudice in fact. It's wrong to put people down and treat them as less of a person because of their gender, skin colour, religion, race, whatever. Just want to put that out there.

I was, in fact, having a similar conversation to this with my fiance on...Friday I think it was, about how women are treated/spoken to purely because they're women. Now I think that he's pretty understanding and agrees with most of my points...but I have to say he can still be a bit closed minded about some stuff.

We had been to see a documentary on the treatment of women in the Italian media, and a few women there were more 'feminist' than others. By 'feminist' in quotes, what I mean is that they seemed to be those feminists who hate men, and think men are always wrong and seemed to want to pick a fight with any man there during the discussion after.

I would call myself a feminist, I believe in equality for women AND men, for everyone in fact, and I think women do get treated worse than men in a lot of ways, purely for being women. I think though, although I could be wrong, that some of the 'feminists' like those I mentioned above do not help and in fact help keep the stereotype going for some people that feminists are bra burning, men hating people. Some are, but I think most are not.

I've rambled on far too much, about something not 100% related but my main point is (I think!) that sexist jokes, and people acting in a certain way, can help fuel stereotypes and carry on the opinion of some people that women are 'lesser' beings than men. Which is not a good situation to be in. I get some people have sexist jokes amongst a group of close friends ('banter' or whatever you want to call it) which can be fair enough if everyone is ok with it. But those jokes generally are not acceptable and I think people should be made more aware of that.

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Honoured Mook

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Posts: 248
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@electrosexual sorry, I quickly scanned your post the first time & I thought you had written "you would" instead of "you wouldn't", my apologies I was in a rush & I misread it.

I understand what you mean. I just really hate studies because they are so general in nature, it feels like they're blaming everyone in a group for something bad when most people are probably not that way. I don't think any jokes about violence are funny.

I must say I'm fortunate enough to have never been offended by a genuinely sexist comment before but I'm certain I probably will in the future considering I'm wanting to go into rather male-dominated professions. In fact, probably only if I go for dentistry, in science I'm more likely to be ridiculed for believing in a religion. Shoot, I'm going off at a tangent. Back to this!

Sarcasm can be very hurtful, many people have made sarcastic jokes towards me or my friends which have been deeply hurtful, so yes, it's similar. You agree with what my whole point was, "At the end of the day no one should label someone who cracks a sexist joke as a full blown sexist". I have no problems with people voicing their disapproval at such jokes, but they shouldn't be labelled unless it's known that they genuinely hold those beliefs.

__________________

I saw him too. He had a guitar. He winked at me before he jumped out a fourth floor window like he had wings. 

He winked at you?  [tsk] Musicians. 

 

Suddenly I heard a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. 
What are you talking about? 
You heard me rapping, right? 

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