Hunting came up in another thread, and I think it is a very interesting topic. But maybe not something to be discussed extensively in a vegetarian thread.
Personally I do not hunt. I was taken moose hunting when I was a teen and it bored me to desperation. Haven't been doing it since.
But as I've become older and more relaxed, I've been thinking about taking it up again. It's good exercise and hopefully you get something for the pot.
I'm often baffled by people's negative attitudes to hunting though. I'd understand and respect those opinions if they came from vegans, but from people who will happily chomp on meat from industrial production???
I'll also admit that I myself have problems with some types of hunting, basically those related to:
Hunting as an sport exclusively. Taking a life is serious business and should only be done for food or regulation.
Particularly abhorrent to me is raising animals on your land for the sole purpose of having the pleasure of killing them, as especially European nobility have had a habit of.
I also have a dislike for "cowboys", triggerhappy macho jerks that shoots on anything that moves and have no clue what they are doing.
Anyway, I start this thread hoping to get some opinions and discussions. Both hunters and vegans are welcome :)
-- Edited by Irilar on Friday 21st of August 2009 07:14:39 AM
__________________ "So what you are saying is -I shouldn't play with fire" she said at last. "Of course you should" said One-Eye gently. "But don't be surprised if the fire play back." -Joanne Harris
I agree with everything you've said, really, I don't have a problem with hunting for food as I'm not vegetarian, but I think it's sick to see it as a sport. Killing anything for pleasure; no thanks.
^^ Agreed. Hunting's fine if it's truly necessary pest control, in which case it should be as humane as possible, and food, again for necessity. What I can't stand is the social side of it: you can only socialise with people of a certain class if you're killing a small animal in an incredibly cruel way designed to scare it to death first, and then allow it to be outnumbered and ripped to shreds. Oh what a lark for the upper classes!
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Well, my views were in that other thread, and are pretty much already summed up again here.
I agree with your bullet points Irilar; anyone one of those people are basically what makes up the jackasses of the hunting world. Ones that take what they do very seriously avoid these kinds of people like they were plague carriers as much as they can.
I don't know about other parts of the earth, but meat eaters with a negative attitude toward hunting in my area tend to look down on us not because we're doing the killing ourselves (and therefore being able to personally check every part of our meat as well as know exactly where it came from--when can you do that at a restaurant?), but because there's an unfair stereotype that all hunters are right wing, flag waving, Budweiser drinking, racist, rednecks who just want to see things die. Which is hardly the case overall.
All I know is that it's more fun than I thought it would be when I first started, and theres a more primal satisfaction in pulling back the bow string and watching the arrow fly in for the kill than in anything else I've ever done.
-- Edited by Izil on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 01:06:09 PM
__________________ "I like it when a flower or a little tuft of grass grows through a crack in the concrete. It's so effin' heroic."--George Carlin
Wow, Izil you hunt with a bow and arrow?! Awesome. I did archery as a hobby for a while when I was about 11/12 years old but gave it up cos the instructor was more interested in speaking to the experts who would be practicing at the same time as us. Shame since I was a pretty decent shot.
Anyway, back on topic, I agree with Irilar. If I was hunting it would be to eat what I killed. My dad used to have a shotgun and would hunt rabbit (once got a hare) and pigeon. I was really young though so never out with him and he'd gotten rid of it by the time I could have gone out.
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^I've just gotten into archery myself thanks to Bear wanting to teach me, and am not too bad a shot with a target. Unfortunately I was completely new to shooting it--outside of the few times they tried to teach me when I was in the Girl Scouts--when I was hunting with him last bow season, so I didn't actually kill anything with it because my aim was horrible. But still, it was a very satisfying experience just trying.
Otherwise, it's been mostly the tracking side of things for me, as I don't like handling rifles all that much (seems less romantic to me, if that makes any sense). Bear and his other family members will pretty much just go where the deer seem to be congregating most before the season starts based on what they and I have observed beforehand and I will tag along with Bear and cuddle with him and the field mice in his blind.
I want to get good enough to land a kill with the bow though; maybe even on something as small as a rabbit one day.
EDIT--Come to think of it, I think Bear only wanted to teach me how to shoot a weapon properly because he had some sort of fantasy of me as a bit more of an oldschool huntress. Naughty boy.
I don't think he forsaw me taking a liking to it though. XD
-- Edited by Izil on Friday 21st of August 2009 02:03:27 PM
__________________ "I like it when a flower or a little tuft of grass grows through a crack in the concrete. It's so effin' heroic."--George Carlin
I don't enjoy hunting enough to be keen on doing it as a hobby, but when people who live near my parents go hunting I'll gladly go with them. I've never shot a gun, but I've been present during the capture and killing of animals.
Pigging is not particularly pleasant, as they're really tough - normally dogs are required as they sometimes wont go down, even with a bullet in them.
Roo shooting is a favourite past time of a lot of my friends, sometimes to be sold to companies who sell the meat overseas (apparently they're mad for it in Asian countries?) and sometimes just as food for the working dogs. The thing that makes me sad about it, though, is when there is a joey in the pouch. It's common sense not to shoot mothers who obviously have a joey (more money for two grown roos later than 1 now), but sometimes you don't notice til after. I have also heard terrible stories of how some hunters "dispose of" the joeys :(
All animals that people I know shoot are pests. Kangaroos, pigs, goats, deer, rabbits and foxes all wreak havoc on both farming land and bushland, and it's in everyone's best interests to keep their populations down. And some of them are pretty tasty...
Well, my views were in that other thread, and are pretty much already summed up again here.
I agree with your bullet points Irilar; anyone one of those people are basically what makes up the jackasses of the hunting world. Ones that take what they do very seriously avoid these kinds of people like they were plague carriers as much as they can.
I don't know about other parts of the earth, but meat eaters with a negative attitude toward hunting in my area tend to look down on us not because we're doing the killing ourselves (and therefore being able to personally check every part of our meat as well as know exactly where it came from--when can you do that at a restuarant?), but because there's an unfair stereotype that all hunters are right wing, flag waving, Budweiser drinking, racist, rednecks who just want to see things die. Which is hardly the case overall.
All I know is that it's more fun than I thought it would be when I first started, and theres a more primal satisfaction in pulling back the bow string and watching the arrow fly in for the kill than in anything else I've ever done.
-- Edited by Izil on Friday 21st of August 2009 12:35:09 PM
I could not agree more. I have nothing more to say because you have said it all.
I'm a vegetarian but if I still ate meat, I'd probably prefer killing animals myself. The reason is pretty simple: if you buy a steak in a supermarket, you have absolutely no idea what preservatives and other nasty stuff is in it, if you do everything from the kill to cooking yourself, you know exactly what's on your plate.
I'm against the mass meat production on huge farms that produce more than they sell but this has nothing to do with hunting wild animals for food.
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Yeah, I'm hugely against hunting as a sport - setting a pack of dogs to rip apart a fox is fucking abhorrent and inhumane - but as a meat eater I'm fine with hunting for food or pest control.
Yeah, I'm hugely against hunting as a sport - setting a pack of dogs to rip apart a fox is fucking abhorrent and inhumane - but as a meat eater I'm fine with hunting for food or pest control.
Yes I am against hunting as a sport. We are not all like tht though.
I wrote a long post with questions to Izil about bow hunting, but just as I posted the internet connection broke :(
It's illegal in Norway anyway (legal in Finland I think but here I have nowhere to hunt). Shooting fish with an bow and arrow is ok though, so I was wondering if you've ever tried that and have some experience to share?
On a general note: How to get along with animal-rights activists? I really agree with most of their causes and would maybe like to be more active. But since I do not oppose to the killing of animals as long as there is a good reason for it, only the mistreatment of animals, I fear that it would only be trouble? Of course, most of them are surely sensible people but all good causes also attracts extremists. How to deal with them? What arguments to use?
-- Edited by Irilar on Sunday 23rd of August 2009 06:53:50 AM
__________________ "So what you are saying is -I shouldn't play with fire" she said at last. "Of course you should" said One-Eye gently. "But don't be surprised if the fire play back." -Joanne Harris
If you mean groups of activists, perhaps only get involved in the things you feel are important? For example, go along to some marches or sign some petitions, but don't become a member.
I don't think there's much point defending yourself to activists of any kind: they are likely not to listen. If you're asked though, I guess just saying that you eat meat because the pros outweigh the cons for you would be alright.
If anyone really pesters me about it, I say that meat is an effective way of delivering important nutrients to my body, I feel that it's natural to eat other animals and that I have no problem with most of the farming practices that occur in Australia.
I posted something about PETA in the other thread, and it bears repeating: I completely disagree with PETA's methods. There's a line from the Onion's parody of them: 'PETA has released a statement saying that they will not rest until every animal in the world is given better treatment than women' which sadly, in my opinion, it's quite close to the truth.
There's a reason humans aren't made with infinite amounts of empathy: we couldn't cope. I try to care about the important issues, and of course I don't condone cruelty at all, but considering the state the world's in, I'm not actually in a hurry to encourage everyone to convert to veganism (which as we all know, will turn the world into sunshine, rainbows and kosher candy). It's good that we have people fighting against cruelty to animals, but since humans are not made of bottomless compassion, we do need to divide our resources. Let them do their thing, and I'll do mine. It's only when they start demanding that I become their clone that I start to get really hacked off.
I agree with Fiend as well. Meat is an important part of many people's diet, and it is possible to have an industry that's humane and in balance with the ecosystem. And from there it stems into things like leather: I don't have a problem with cow leather, because we use the meat anyway, and so we might as well use the skin.
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I see your points, I guess I just have a desire to stop falling between two chairs. I discuss animal rights with my farming and hunting family, and hunting and farming with vegetarian friends.
On the positive side, both hunters and animal activists are much more concerned about animal welfare than the the general population.
On the negative side, both groups tend to see the other as lunatics. Which is bothering me.
Also, the whole topic is really close to my heart. I find it much easier to have empathy for animals than for humans to be quite honest.
But I have no need to tell people to stop eating meat. To tell them to stop buying industrially produced meat on the other hand... Or rather do I think it is perfectly in place to show people exactly where what they eat comes from, and then they can make up their own mind.
__________________ "So what you are saying is -I shouldn't play with fire" she said at last. "Of course you should" said One-Eye gently. "But don't be surprised if the fire play back." -Joanne Harris
Irilar wrote: It's illegal in Norway anyway (legal in Finland I think but here I have nowhere to hunt). Shooting fish with an bow and arrow is ok though, so I was wondering if you've ever tried that and have some experience to share?
I've never tried, though the idea seems intriguing. I imagine if it's legal at all, my state would probably only make it so in the Great Lakes, where the danger of hitting someone in all that water would be very low.
Then again...people do scuba dive there...
__________________ "I like it when a flower or a little tuft of grass grows through a crack in the concrete. It's so effin' heroic."--George Carlin
Hunting is fine in my eyes, as long as it's not for fun...like fox hunting, there are other ways of dealing with large pest animals other than chasing them across the country, having them ripped apart by dogs, have their tails cut off and left for dead. But yeah, small pest control and food is fine, it's what humans have been doing since we discovered that the big squishy animal tastes good, or the small squeaky animal eats our crops, killing is natural. I've killed chickens, rabbits, fish, game animals and a cow (I went to an abbitour (?) for a day and they showed me how and believe me, it was humane and it didn't suffer) and I ate these animals/fish/birds but I wouldn't kill a fox or a badger for fun.
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I love hunting its great exercise. I believe that I am helping Australia's animals the best way I can. When I was a little girl I remember seeing a fox kill little native ducklings I cried about that for days. As I got older I began to realise that if the British never brought foxs here that that those dear sweat little duckies would still hopefully be alive. On our camping trips Dad also used to show me all the rabbit diggings and how it was seriously affecting the environment and native plants. I shoot in the most humane way posible beause it makes me nearly cry to think that that animal is in pain. Yes I do shoot for fun and as a sport but bare in mind hunting as a sport here isnt cruel like it is in England.
Ich bin ein veggie. And I believe hunting is right if it's humane and helping the environment. As long as it isn't for sport or needlessly wasting an animals life - it's all good.
See above for more detailed, insightful and articulate versions of my opinion. I can't be arsed.
And I would like to add, vegetarians and meat eaters and hunters can live in harmony *happy music from Bambi*
I have to say, some of the best meat I have ever eaten has been hunted properly, ie. gun, bow and arrow, spear etc....and it tasted divine! I know that the animal lead a happy life outside and it's well exercised. I would like to try shooting again one day.
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I have no problem with hunting for food or pest control if it is done humanely, though I probably wouldn't do it myself. I've always wanted to fire a gun, but probably just at some old tin cans rather than an animal!
Hunting for sport bothers me, particularly if the animal is injured and left for dead, or killed in a brutal or inhumane way.
I'd love to be able to say that I'm a huntress but I think if I ever killed an animal I'd cry about it for weeks
-- Edited by ShuvLove on Thursday 27th of August 2009 08:00:48 PM
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Irilar wrote: But I have no need to tell people to stop eating meat. To tell them to stop buying industrially produced meat on the other hand... Or rather do I think it is perfectly in place to show people exactly where what they eat comes from, and then they can make up their own mind.
I'm glad I got to see statements and others like this. There was an article I read some time ago about not stopping eating meat completely, but eating less of it, and stepping away from industrail meat.
I live, literally, right next to the woods, and my whole area itself is situated in the mountains, so its only natural we've a large population of hunters. We rarely ever bought meat from a store; most of my deit consisted of Venison for as long as I can remember. (And I must say, Squirrel is quite good as well.) I went out for archery with my dad several times, but my arm stregnth is far to low to pull a bow. (My bow is set to the lowest it can go, and I've still got trouble doing it. x__X) I do go out squirrel hunting when the seasons open, (We had a massive pest popluation of them for a while.) and thanks to that I've learned to enjoy the taste of Squirrel Pot Pie. xD
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I don't like hunting at all- my motto is: if you don't want them coming in, build a better fence!
I can understand it if it's absolutely necessary and humane, but people who hunt for sport and/or fun sicken me. That's just... wrong. The same way bullfighting is wrong. Death-sadists and I go together like icecream and sawdust; very badly.
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I think we are all in agreement that hunting purely for the "sport" is wrong.
Fences are all good in theory but not all animals/pests will be kept out by fences. Things that can climb, things that can jump (deer), things that fly...
Hunting isn't necessarily about keeping the animals/birds out of an area, it's population control and food gathering.
__________________ Resident Hair Guru Kat Stratford: "I guess in this society, being male and an asshole makes you worthy of our time."
I agree with all thats been said above, but none of you have mentioned the taste. Meat that is bought from the grocers usually tastes a bit different than wild animals, or (sometimes) farm raised. I've noticed this especially in venison, rabbit, etc. When people are so used to the taste of one, they don't usually like the other as much.
